00:00:22 Qing Wang

From classic literature in China, when we decided to, you know, make an English translation of the podcast, we actually sort of like struggling with one English name, and we finally settled for the weirdo. But we do get like, you know, mixed reaction from our English, English-speaking friends.

00:00:42 Qing Wang

And some really like it because it can produce this a little bit naughty, edgy feeling, but some others said, hey, hey, Qing, if the podcast is called the Weirdo podcast, it's really difficult to take you seriously.

00:00:56 Remko Tanis

And how do you convince them to take you seriously then?

00:00:59 Qing Wang

By showing them what we have produced. So the podcast is entering its five-year anniversary. So this is like the fifth year we've been doing that and we've been producing more than 200 episodes. So on a weekly basis being very actively participating in

00:01:19 Qing Wang

all kinds of discussions, especially when there is like an issue that concerns a lot of

00:01:24 Qing Wang

attention and we build a big community among our audiences and also among our speaker group. So these are things that we are quite proud of and it is a quite serious podcast.

00:01:38 Remko Tanis

Just back to that name because I saw on the website of the podcast that you quote The Economist, which says the Weirdo strives to cater to those who live up to its title.

00:01:48 Remko Tanis

And you also have a quote on the website from Sixth Tone and they say on the website well the Weirdo is a podcast dedicated to people who feel like they don't fit in. Just a bit of a blunt question maybe, but as a host, do you consider yourself someone who doesn't fit in, maybe a weirdo and what is it you don't fit in with?

00:02:08 Qing Wang

From my personal experience, I do feel connected with the concept of not fitting in.

00:02:13 Qing Wang

In the past, when we see someone who will not fit in, it feels like a negative judgment, like someone who has difficulty of becoming a part of his environment, someone who may have failed to be an integrated member of the community that nowadays.

00:02:34 Qing Wang

I view the perception of not fitting in has changed and in a world full of crises, people realize that the society that we have been living in actually has a lot of problem.t

00:02:47 Qing Wang

And that sort of mentality among young people, I believe it happens everywhere in the world, including in China. Therefore, not fitting in becomes a precious quality. It means that you first need to be knowledgeable enough to understand the problems that you somehow need to remain

00:03:07 Qing Wang

critical and remain independent thinking. You need to keep questioning things and you need to insist on your own agency. So if you ask me, you know, do I see myself as someone who doesn’t fit in?

00:03:25 Qing Wang

Yes, I think I do have a lot of moments that I feel I don't fit in. Right here in Europe, I've been living in Europe for 10 years in different European countries. It's a continent I really like, but there are moments that I feel as an immigrant, I do not fit in.

00:03:43 Qing Wang

And returning to my home country in China, it's a country where I was born and I was raised, that I have my family, my friends. After 10 years of living outside of China, there are loads of moments that I feel I don't fit in.

00:03:56 Remko Tanis

The podcast comes out with new episodes every week. Each episode gets over 400,000 listens, while the podcast has more than a million followers across all platforms. What explains that success?

00:04:08 Qing Wang

I think we were one of the first who were seriously doing podcasting in Chinese language. We were

00:04:16 Qing Wang

kind of early in the game and China was a little bit slower than the English.

00:04:22 Qing Wang

And so we were lucky to be there when it started taking off in 2020 because of the Covid pandemic happened. And I think that fundamentally changed people's life, including people’s way of consuming information and people's way of using media.

00:04:42 Qing Wang

Secondly, it is because of the transformation

00:04:47 Qing Wang

that is happening in the global media landscape. The old style of journalistic reporting start facing more and more challenges, and I think podcasting is innovative, creative that includes

00:05:06 Qing Wang

a professional way of approaching a story.

00:05:10 Qing Wang

But also you could feel a sort of private connection, kind of intimate one, with the hosts that is probably a new way of establishing trust. Again, we were lucky, like the way our background in media and in being journalists.

00:05:30 Qing Wang

So I believe the content that we create addresses the need of accessing reliable, trustworthy information and also the emotional need

00:05:42 Qing Wang

of hearing a story from someone you know you remotely, know if there is a real person speaking instead of a factual, but somehow cold media organization. In the podcast if you ask me what is the number one rule when we decide to cover

00:06:03 Qing Wang

a topic is: do we have something to say?

00:06:06 Qing Wang

Do we have some good question to ask? Do I really want to know the answer of the question or do I just pretend that I want to know? So I think there is like a big difference and I think our listeners see it. They hear it and they appreciate it.

00:06:21 Remko Tanis

If you choose those topics that you feel personal connection to as a host, or that you know your audience already has a personal connection to, isn't there a risk that

00:06:30 Remko Tanis

you end up only speaking about things that you already care about and not really looking outside of your bubble and maybe also if that doesn't lead to your audience as well, just circling in that same group and saying, well, I'll just involve myself with this community and it is a great community, but that also

00:06:50 Remko Tanis

liberates me from the responsibility to find a solution for problems the mainstream society

00:06:56 Remko Tanis

might deal with. It doesn't really come across to me as let's also find solutions for the anxieties we have or the problems we see that make us feel outside of the mainstream.

00:07:08 Qing Wang

Yeah, I think that's a great question. And again, you're coming from a journalist background. I have thought about this question a lot. My thinking in our podcast is that, you know, do I worry that this will be just a small bubble?

00:07:24 Qing Wang

Yes, I do have the worry and one way to compensate that is to invite speakers who have different views and they are not always our friends. Sometimes they are from the group that have very different political views. But if you ask me, you know, when I decide which topic to talk about,

00:07:43 Qing Wang

I do have to admit, yes, there are some issues that I care more than other issues, but that I have to admit the limits of our capacity. Like for instance, I care about the, you know, women's issue a lot and we give that a very high

00:08:00 Qing Wang

priority and women's issue, you know, in the international political economic world is probably not always that important when you talk about, you know, the whole how the whole world is functioning from a geopolitical point of view. But for me personally women’s issues are a really important one. I really want to give space

00:08:20 Qing Wang 

to talk about topics like such.

00:08:23 Remko Tanis

You used to be Europe correspondent and international correspondent for JieMian News, a Shanghai-based commercial news outlet. A while back I came across an interview you gave and when asked why you became a foreign correspondent, you said I want to help China and the rest of the world understand each other better. If we look at now 2024, what are currently the biggest misunderstandings

00:08:43 Remko Tanis

in both directions between China and well, let's look specifically at Europe?

00:08:48 Qing Wang

That is the question I have been sort of struggling with.

00:08:52 Qing Wang

I think right now the relationship between China and Europe is in a very interesting and challenging phase. I think for a long time, Europe was considered as a place, a sort of human heaven for a lot of the Chinese people.

00:09:12 Qing Wang

Especially like 10-20 years ago, a lot of Chinese people they used to aspire to

00:09:19 Qing Wang

come to study and to leave to work in a European country, because that would somehow, you know, similar to what Francis Fukuyama described as the end of history type of place, right, like Switzerland. But I think that perception has been a largely challenged.

00:09:39 Qing Wang

The last 10 years, especially ever since

00:09:42 Qing Wang

the Syrian refugee crisis and then the Brexit referendum following and the rise of populism after that, the Chinese general public started forming some sort of perception that Europe is in decline and we saw the news

00:10:03 Qing Wang

in China had somehow amplified that impression. And you know, not to mention the COVID pandemic. And then the war in Ukraine. I think that contributed to the impression that Chinese people start have

00:10:21 Qing Wang

that turns towards Europe and European society. It used to be sort of looking up attitude. Chinese people look up to Europe. Now somehow, yeah, no offense, just like describing, you know what I have been feeling from this group of audiences.

00:10:38 Remko Tanis

No offense taken.

00:10:40 Qing Wang

And from a somehow looking up attitude to a somewhat

00:10:46 Qing Wang

looking down. If course, Europe is still the well-functioning, well-governed society. I mean, objectively compared to the rest of the world, maybe the living standard is the highest in this continent. There are lots of things that China should learn from Europe, but on the other hand,

00:11:07 Qing Wang

we also need to, you know, realize in the post-colonial world, we should also be more aware and also more critical about a Europe-centric approach, not just in China but also in the rest of the world. Conversely, there are also 2 sides.

00:11:26 Qing Wang

You know, when Europeans look at China, it's either that, you know, China is having high economic growth and it's producing a lot of the high technology and it creates some interesting model for societal development. And the numbers are crazy.

00:11:46 Qing Wang

Numbers are great, but on the other hand there are also voices that consider China as a place where a lot of basic

00:11:58 Qing Wang

values that European society appreciates have no place to go in China, and China is considered as a place that is very different also and almost impossible to change in the future. The second one is somehow taking a prominent.

00:12:18 Qing Wang

It is true both sides, but China is also more than that. China and Europe are in a historical turning moment. There is space and possibility to collaborate on so many grounds. Of course there are obvious differences.

00:12:35 Qing Wang

But whether China and Europe can overcome those differences, decides the next stage for the whole humanity. And I'm talking about that specific in the context of the climate crisis, in dealing with the climate crisis. China and Europe

00:12:54 Qing Wang

are the two most committed players in the world because you have the US as also a super big player, but with this political uncertainty

00:13:05 Qing Wang

That might happen in the coming four years? I think China and Europe should form a more solid ground on the specific issue. If China and Europe cannot collaborate on this issue, we almost certainly cannot see it happening anywhere else.

00:13:22 Remko Tanis

Have you kind of given up on the US and China cooperating on these issues?

00:13:26 Qing Wang

I am more pessimistic about the China-US relationship. I think the China-US relations have this nature

00:13:36 Qing Wang

somehow inevitable competition in a lot of ways, my personal feeling, China and the US are actually two countries that are quite similar to each other in terms of social mobility, while at the same time I think a lot of European countries actually provide

00:13:56 Qing Wang

A model of governing of living, way of living, prioritizing the well-being of people and the reflecting on the capitalism way of functioning in a lot of dimensions. China and Europe is just because they are so

00:14:17 Qing Wang

different from each other.

00:14:18 Qing Wang

That might open up space to really see and learn from each other.

00:14:23 Remko Tanis

I just wanted to dive a little bit more into some of the recent episodes you've done with the Weirdo. One recent episode talked about the question on how to re-examine what in translation came out as East Asianess or being East Asian while living in Europe or the US. A few listener comments stood out to me.

00:14:42 Remko Tanis

One listener said, well, in East Asia, the cost of making choices is too high. It's difficult to be like young people in Europe who graduate from high school and don't care if they don't want to go to university, this person said. I've lived in Europe for 641 days, back to China now for 26 days, but I think I am more suitable to live elsewhere. With the

00:15:02 Remko Tanis

same hard work abroad, the soul can be free and feel the joy of life. I've been going through a few of the episodes and the comments.

00:15:08 Remko Tanis

And a lot of them are kind of in this tone, right? It's very personal. Sometimes it's very much about dilemmas facing in, for example, if it's difficult to find a job in a slowing economy, or the pressure from society to go to the best university or to get married early or whatever. These listener observations,

00:15:28 Remko Tanis

how do they match your own experience, like the pressures of living either in in China and working there and meeting the expectations of that society or living life in Europe?

00:15:40 Qing Wang

Thank you so much for going through our comments also attentively.

00:15:45 Qing Wang

And I think this is definitely a global phenomenon right now for young people to care much more about, you know, how should I live my life? It is a reaction of a post pandemic world that people’s lives have been largely

00:16:04 Qing Wang

disrupted and you know, at the beginning of the pandemic, a lot of those listeners, they probably just started out at college or started the new job with some of them

00:16:15 Qing Wang

studying abroad. You know, at this fresh start of their adult life, then the pandemic happened and it disrupted everything. And you know, I've also heard similar stories for European young people and also for, you know, American young people. So this kind of frustration or

00:16:35 Qing Wang

highly depressive tone of voice.

00:16:37 Qing Wang

It probably has a global outreach. In the case of China, like for instance, as a woman in China, young women are under a lot of pressure. The society will tell you that if you want to be a perfect woman, you not only need to have a career, but you also need to have children and you better

00:16:58 Qing Wang

have children in a certain age and thus when you get out of the environment that you are familiar with like you move to another country, a lot of them come to Europe. Some of them went to the US the moment you get out of your country, you somehow acquire

00:17:16 Qing Wang

something I call immigrant privilege. It's a kind of ironic term because, you know, as an immigrant, of course, you have to deal with all sorts of immigrant issues in your host country, but at the same time, a lot of Asian women, they do feel more liberated because, I mean, yeah, first of all, if you look at all the, all the, you know

00:17:36 Qing Wang

rating of gender equality, most European countries have very high scores. This is not to say that, I mean, my personal experience, I'm experiencing things from both sides. Like on the one hand, I feel liberated because I am outside of my home country. You know, when my family wants to push more

00:17:56 Qing Wang

on me in terms of, you know, my marriage or my children, then I am a little bit further away from that. Infrastructure, ensure some basic gender equality.

00:18:15 Qing Wang

On the other hand, as a migrant woman in European society, I also have to deal with sometimes, like unspoken but sometimes obvious racism and sexism, there are also stereotypes about migrant women, especially women from Asia.

00:18:35 Qing Wang

And also women from Middle East and from Latin America. So I feel like we are sort of in between two systems and sort of trying to you know find our way and to navigate to be authentic to our feeling and to try to have a good life.

00:18:53 Remko Tanis

I wanted to refer to one more recent episode of the podcast, and it was about Germany. How the Middle East crisis,

00:18:59 Remko Tanis

the war in Gaza is affecting Germany. The episode was described on the website as for Germany, the past is never really the past. The Holocaust still affects Germany, shapes the German world view. So how do Germans face this new context of both wanting to stand up for human rights? Also in wartime, for the many civilians who are victim in the Middle East?

00:19:19 Remko Tanis

But at the same time not coming across as being too critical of Israel's role in everything because of Germany’s own past?

00:19:24 Remko Tanis

I don't mean to discuss the Middle East crisis with you here, but what I noticed in this episode is how detailed the discussion is on the views of Chinese expats in Germany on how they see their host country, Germany, deal with this major world crisis and it made me think, do you think Europeans have that kind of discussion

00:19:46 Remko Tanis

on what happens in China, because this seems very much like Chinese expats living in Europe, really debating

00:19:52 Remko Tanis

how a European country is dealing with certain world affairs? Do you feel that kind of nuanced discussion is taking place amongst Europeans about how China deals with certain world events?

00:20:03 Qing Wang

I think there are, you know, great China experts in Europe. I know a lot of them and I believe you and your organization are

00:20:12 Qing Wang

you know is the central hub of a lot of the China expertise. The knowledge around China is huge. Lots of Europeans spend serious amount of time in China, speaking fluent Chinese and will have a very strong personal

00:20:30 Qing Wang

stake in China and I think the expertise is there, the knowledge is there, but I do also get frustrated whenever I go to conferences about China because your feeling is generally the conversation in the private occasions are much more interesting than those

00:20:50 Qing Wang

that happened on the stage.

00:20:52 Qing Wang

No. OK, this is about, you know, China in the geopolitical world. This is China's foreign policy. And you somehow already know. OK, this person is going to represent this kind of opinion. It's not always that sometimes you get surprised as well.

00:21:15 Qing Wang

On the other hand, I think there are also a great expertise about European politics and society in China, but most of them are also not for the public. So if you look at the similar forum

00:21:35 Qing Wang

or conference in China about Europe is also

00:21:38 Qing Wang

Like that you go there, and you go through the speaker list and you're like, OK, yeah, I sort of

00:21:43 Qing Wang

Know what this conference is going to be about. So I think for our podcast, one of the angles I quite like in this episode is that the two guests that we spoke to, they are Chinese people living and working in Germany and it was actually a live recording event happening in Berlin. We gathered a group of 30-40 Chinese participants, so.

00:22:04 Qing Wang

Chinese people living in Germany, their role is not so much, you know, a German, Germany watcher or Germany expert.

00:22:13 Qing Wang

They are really living here. So for instance, the situation does really affect their life, like for instance, every weekend you have some, like big protests one side or the other situation, especially in the cities.

00:22:32 Qing Wang

The situation also does raise a question for all the immigrant group living in Germany.

00:22:40 Qing Wang

Germany as a society, that we really want to be a part of and of course, then whatever is going on in the society, matters a great deal to them because they are one of the stakeholders in the society's well-being.

00:22:55 Remko Tanis

Your podcast is celebrating five years this year and I saw that you produced a special cap that you offer for sale on the website with the Chinese character Bu on it, which kind of translates as no. The website said: Well, in contemporary society, learning to say no is an attitude and a skill. We want to give more people the courage and attitudes to say no loudly.

00:23:15 Remko Tanis

And then there are some topics like no to a distant relative who is urging you to get married. No, to tell me to be more beautiful, work harder, be more successful. No to war, death, climate disasters. Some of these topics we've discussed in our conversation. What is something that your audience feels like they could say yes to, actually.

00:23:34 Qing Wang

Oh that's a very yeah, important question that

00:23:35 Qing Wang

I don't have answer for I am afraid.

00:23:43 Qing Wang

Uh, something that I personally start to realize after you know, doing this podcast for five years, it is not enough to just say no. It is not enough to

00:23:54 Qing Wang

just be aware of what you don't want to be, but it's also very important to know what you aspire to be. For me and my co-host and for the community, we would love to you if we have the chance, you know, say yes to more choices, more freedom

00:24:13 Qing Wang

more inclusion. It is the society that we feel right now we probably don't have.

00:24:22 Remko Tanis

Thank you very much for this for this excellent conversation Qing Wang.

00:24:25 Qing Wang

Thank you so much Remko and yeah, thank you for the effort.

00:24:29 Qing Wang

Looking forward to seeing you in Zurich and probably Rotterdam.

00:24:33 Remko Tanis

Yes, absolutely. Thank you.

00:24:35 Qing Wang

Thanks.